Update Oct 14/2002: The Enterprise website is backonline! All links in this article are now active. Nice one TEM (The Enterprise Mission) boys!

Interview by Denny Unger

NEW IMAGES FROM THEMIS

Richard Hoagland's Enterprise Mission recently retrieved amazing daytime Infra Red images of the Cydonian plains from the Themis website. What is more amazing is that without any enhancement this data was riddled with what appeared to be a series of rectilinear formations just beneath the permafrost. These formations vary in shape and size but seem to follow a grid like pattern throughout Cydonia and have all the earmarks of an intelligently designed "city". Was this finally the vindicating proof that Richard C Hoagland had spent his life searching for? Unfortunately and not surprisingly the Enterprise hit a snag when they asked for independent confirmation of their findings. When others downloaded the data to confirm Hoagland's findings the rectilinear forms that had caused so much excitement with the Enterprise crew were now missing. What they instead saw was a "sanitized" version of the image with large chunks of missing data. It would seem that in a short space of time the original "real" data had been replaced with something that was less than impressive and far less enigmatic. Had ASU/THEMIS/NASA revealed data that was not meant for public consumption and quickly tried to cover their tracks? Or was this an attempt to discredit a lifetime of Hoaglands work by releasing to him fraudulent data?

(This story runs much deeper than the brief summary above. I encourage you to research this issue on your own by visiting www.enterprisemission.com or www.marsnews.com for more information.)

DarkPlanet recently asked Richard Hoagland what his thoughts were on this latest series of events. He was kind enough to take the time out of his busy schedule to answer some questions that we are all dying to know.

THE MEDIA MACHINE

DP: MarsNews, the online scientific journal, has been taking heat recently for pursuing your latest findings. Why do you think MarsNews has decided to cover the story when other valid science news services choose to avoid it?

RCH: Well, somebody’s got to be first. Alan Boyle, of MSNBC, started out on the right foot by also doing a somewhat serious initial story on the THEMIS Cydonia image we received, but apparently lost interest along the way. MarsNews seems to have interviewed sources that MSNBC didn’t have, that apparently gave them enough independent corroboration – such as the Phobos 2 confirmation of “underground Martian cities” similar to the one appearing on our controversial “leaked” THEMIS image, reported by the Russians 13 years ago – to get MarsNews to stay on the story. Remember: in the beginning only ONE news organization – the Washington Post -- reported seriously on some two-bit burglary called “Watergate,” and the possible criminal actions by a President of the United States. Ultimately, they were proven stunningly correct. At the moment, only one space news organization is reporting seriously on possible criminal activity – the outright manipulation and faking of scientific data from Mars, and the continuing cover-up of new evidence of possible extraterrestrial ruins there -- by a small but highly influential group in NASA. Given the Watergate experience, who knows where this could ultimately lead ….

DP: Have you tried contacting the “popular press” regarding your latest findings and if so what has been their reaction?

RCH: Mike Bara, on behalf of Enterprise, sent out a press release to every major news organization in the United States, September 5 – only a month ago -- as well as to key media in the foreign press. So far, only MSNBC, MarsNews.com, and a major popular German science magazine have responded. But, it’s way early in the game. I go back to my Watergate analogy: how long did it take before there was a general clamor in the domestic media (let alone the foreign press) for President Nixon’s actual impeachment, before he actually was forced to resign!? Remember: historically, lack of an “early” general appreciation of a story has nothing to do with its ultimate veracity or confirmation.

DP: Some of us have noticed that even alternative media venues are shying away from your latest findings. Any thoughts as to why?

RCH: Simple: everyone’s scared to be first – particularly when there’s major controversy involved. That’s why there are so few true pioneers. I must commend Jim Burk (the Editor and Publisher of MarsNews.com) for taking this story seriously, and continuing to do more digging. It shows real journalistic courage and integrity, to say the least. I just wish there were more people of Burk’s caliber in the so-called “alternative press.” But unfortunately, the same bad habits which have affected the “major media” in recent years, seem to have also heavily influenced the media alternatives: namely, a fear of looking silly, an unfortunate tendency to believe “authority” over simple first-hand investigation. Fortunately, MarsNews seems not to have come down with the same “bug!”

DP: Do you see an active campaign of disinformation or an outright media blackout pertaining to your work?

RCH: It’s obvious from even a casual reading of the various Internet bulletin boards and chat rooms that there is a vigorous disinformation campaign being conducted against our latest findings. This raises the obvious question: "why?” If we’re crazy – as some bizarre individuals have actually claimed -- or have consciously perpetrated a fraud here … why bother? Who’s ultimately going to listen to seriously ill people for long? But the shrill and increasingly inane attacks continue, unabated. Why? Maybe … because we’re on to something …? Ultimately, as Lincoln said, you can fool some of the people some of the time … but you can’t fool ALL of the people ALL of the time …. The truth will come out ... as it did in Watergate. There are some additional Cydonia surprises just ahead ….

DP: Why do you think NASA needs to keep the Martian artificial structures issue under wraps? Do you believe that it may be because of the dangers of social unbalance occurring throughout the world if such information was confirmed, or is it because there might be a threat to our general understanding of history and evolution (i.e. humanity might have originated from Mars)?

RCH: I think it’s a combination of both: if we (actually, our great, great, great, etc. ancestors) came from Mars - -as our research is tending to reveal – then EVERYTHING we think we know of our human history is simply wrong. No exceptions. And that would tend to undercut and destabilize both religious as well as secular control systems – the churches and governments. So, there’s a LOT of incentive to suppress this set of “little, unpleasant facts.” It all goes back to NASA’s own study of precisely these “heretical” ideas and their major social implications, in 1959: the so-called “Brookings Report.”

DP: Have you or any of your staff received any threats as a result of the research conducted on The Enterprise Mission?

RCH: Well ... how do you define a “threat?” The methods to deter folks today from asking pointed questions, and then talking about what they discover, are very sophisticated -- with political, social and even economic pressures applied to slow down or distract cutting edge researchers from their primary objectives. These, of course, include outright character assassination. The latter is simply a less bloody form of murder – you attempt to make an individual a “non-person,” to destroy a researcher’s credibility, integrity, and social support network by spreading repeated, outrageous lies about him or her. Enough lies ... and even his close friends may begin to have their doubts. And we’ve had plenty of that in the wake of our publication of the two (now three) different THEMIS images – up to and including a veritable recent “mutiny” at the ISP which maintains the Enterprise Mission’s website and on-line Conference, with the blatantly sanctioned publication of private e-mails, conversations, deliberately distorted versions of public interviews … the whole gamut. Nothing less than a carefully designed, “low-grade terror” campaign – aimed directly against our work and us. This has even included weird phone calls in the middle of the night, with outright “threats” to “expose” my association with “Israeli intelligence” if I don’t “desist” (!). Curiously, this particular lie was echoed a few days later by the recirculation of an old 1999 claim by the Middle Eastern Press Agency, that I (and several other cutting edge researchers) are actively working for Israel -- in attempting to “rewrite human history in its claim of ownership.” Obviously, we’re making “someone” (now, who hates Israel and any serious research into our distant origins …?) very nervous …. Which again raises the question: if we’re simply “out to lunch,” why would anyone even care … unless … we’re not?

THE DATA

DP: During the period in which you first released your latest data regarding the Cydonian IR findings, you stated that your website www.enterprismission.com was the victim of numerous hacker attacks. Have these attacks continued and do you have any information on who might be responsible?

RCH: Yes, we’ve had outside hackers attempting to prevent our research from being disseminated on the Enterprise website. More insidious have been a series of unfortunate incidents within our current ISP – which hosts both the main Enterprise website AND the on-line Conference. These incidents began in earnest with the release of our THEMIS findings, eventually reaching a point where they seriously interfered with our public presentations and research policies. We have been forced therefore to seek a new web host for these important outlets for our continuing research and publications. And, we have incontrovertible evidence that this was all deliberately planned and carried out by previously identified enemies of Enterprise. Who is ultimately behind this current campaign is much harder to prove, as we can only see and trace the actions of the “agents.” But, in any crime, one always looks to “means,” “motive” and “opportunity.” It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize who has the most to gain by “shutting us down.” Curiously, the Middle Eastern Press story cited above could be another major clue ….

DP: In regards to your latest research, MarsNews speculates that NASA or some other government agency may be out to discredit you by giving you false or altered IR data. How trustworthy is your “source” and how solid is the data that has been provided?

RCH: In the case of the leaked THEMIS image, there was no “source”: Keith Laney downloaded the remarkably different version of the official THEMIS Cydonia IR image currently on the ASU website, directly from the same ASU website -- but on the evening of July 25th, not July 24th – the day it was initially released. So, whatever its ultimate lineage, we (Laney) got it from ASU. Now, is it a true leak of REAL data ... or an elaborate NASA/ASU hoax? Our true “source” in Washington, “Deep Space” (which is actually not just one individual but several people, by the way) has assured us that the data we received is real ... and indicative of other startling THEMIS Mars data currently being kept from the American people. So, we have no doubts as to its authenticity at this point – even if our own analysis had not found independent, fascinating corroboration of many of our unpublished Mars models in this same data! We intend to publish those confirmations in the near future, as this investigation deepens. Remember: I said earlier there would be “additional surprises.” This is one of them ….

DP: Many out there are blowing this issue off because they believe you have altered the Cydonian IR data yourself to include these “structures”. For god sakes please defend yourself!

RCH: Some accusations are so absurd that they don’t need “defending.” But I do have a story which I think is relevant here …. A couple of hundred years ago, Thomas Jefferson, on hearing stories of meteorite falls in Wethersfield, Connecticut from two very distinguished individuals he trusted, is reported to have said: “I’d rather believe that two New England gentlemen would lie, than that stones could actually fall from Heaven!” I think something like that is occurring with this ridiculous escape from reality: most people are so fearful that we’re right … that there IS an ancient, extinct civilization on Mars …and that NASA has lied to cover it up for decades … that they would rather believe ANYTHING – even the possibility that we’ve faked the data -- than be confronted with the evidence that we’ve been right all along. It’s an understandable -- if futile -- retreat into “denial.” Which our enemies are skillfully exploiting, by spreading these outrageous accusations.

DP: Do you feel this new data has vindicated you or damned you?

RCH: We’re still a long way from “vindication” … yet. But, remember those coming “surprises” …. It may not be that far away.

DP: What is the approximate scale (on average) of the structures shown in the Mars Odyssey Cydonia IR image? Can they be compared with earth bound structures?

RCH: Everything on Mars is bigger. Given the scale of the infamous Face – about a mile long -- you’d expect that other artificial structures would be similar. That … and the overall 1/3rd gravity of Mars. The scale of the structures which now seem to be lying under the Cydonia plain are on the order of “several thousand feet” – similar to those we’ve found in the “City” above ground, and well within the range of the largest artificial structures here on Earth.

DP: Is it possible to extract even finer detail from the “Real” dataset?

RCH: We’re working on it. It’s a matter of “signal to noise.” Laney has gotten quite expert working with the ENVI software, and some of his latest products are significantly more detailed than his first efforts (see, for example our latest article – published October 5). So, we don’t think we’ve reached the limits of the data, yet.

DP: Assuming that the data represents a city. is there any evidence for a transportation system or public works (Power stations, Water, Sewage)?

RCH: As we cited in our initial THEMIS article on September 5, there is evidence for some kind of “subway” or “transport system” emanating from the eastern side of the Fort and entering the western side of a major above ground “mesa” some miles away. There even appears to be some kind of “station” midway along this “transport system.” As for other facilities and their possible functions: there is no scientific way to tell from mere imagery… until we actually go there and land!

DP: Is there any way to determine the age of these structures?

RCH: Only at this point by the general age determinations we’ve previously applied to Cydonia: the astronomical solstice alignments, etc. I described in my book, “The Monuments of Mars.” And those came to around “half a million years.” Of course on Mars, exposed to a much thinner and non-oxygen atmospheric environment, that period of time is not nearly as destructive as it would be here on Earth. Even less so, if the structures have been safely buried for most of that time ….

DP: How do the famous structures such as the Face, DM pyramid and others in the Cydonian region fit into these new findings? Is there any relationship between the old and newly found structures?

RCH: This is a MOST perceptive question. And anyone could see this crucial answer for themselves … if they were actually interested in looking at the data, and not in just endlessly accusing us of some kind of skullduggery! One of the truly exciting early findings we’ve made is that, in fact, the major above ground structures DO seem to be intimately related – geometrically and architecturally -- to the newly-revealed underground structures in the thermal infrared. One only has to carefully study the band ratios and VIS/THEMIS overlays we’ve released so far, to confirm this! This, of course, confirms that we’re dealing an integrated, architectural “Complex” – with new below ground components -- as opposed to simple “imaging artifacts.” The major above ground structures also seem to have been exposed to the elements for most of their existence, and are thus significantly eroded compared to the underground facilities – another indication that this is all quite real. But, there’s a lot of work remaining. We’ll be reporting more fully on many of these this exciting aspects in our forthcoming Technical Report.

DP: Has the new data confirmed any old assumptions you’ve had regarding Mars and artificiality?

RCH: Yes. That’s it’s real. :)

DP: Why do you think NASA’s not showing us the nighttime IR images taken over the Cydonian region?

RCH: I don’t have to “think” – I’ve been told. Our Washington sources say quite bluntly that if NASA is forced to prematurely give up the nighttime IR it has acquired all over Mars (not just Cydonia), before they have a chance to “sanitize” the images, then it’s “game over” for the cover-up. Which means we have to demand access to ALL the THEMIS imagery – day and night -- now!

DP: Do you continue to find exciting anomalies within the new data? When will you be releasing more information?

RCH: The answer to the first question is “yes” (remember those “surprises”). And the answer to the second is “very soon.”

DP: Do you believe there to be similar “anomalies” scattered around Mars in the IR wavelength?

RCH: Yes, based on not only our discovery of other artifacts in wide-ranging areas of Mars in the previous visible light MGS imagery, but from the Russian’s 1989 IR “underground” experience with Phobos 2 as well.

DP: What can the average person do to bring these issues into the light and why is it important to the human race?

RCH: They can start by doing their own homework, by not paying attention to the loud purveyors of disinformation. Examine our THEMIS data VERY carefully (see the question re the relationship of the above ground to underground structures – above), and then tell others … and the media. Spread the word. And the reason any of this is important is that, based on our entire investigation of the previous twenty years, I have firmly come to believe that the confirmation and study of the extinct Martian civilization these ruins represent is NOT about “aliens” … but about “ourselves.” That this is the key reason why “someone” doesn’t want us to know the truth about any of this. That, as long as we’re kept in the dark about the extraordinary ancient heritage each human shares with every other human being on this planet - -irrespective of nation, race, creed, or belief – there are those who can successfully keep us apart, fighting one another, and committing acts of terror on our fellow human beings in the name of our own “truths.” So, in a way, I see the ultimate confirmation of our heritage on Mars as essential to ushering in a new day here on Earth -- where human beings once again see themselves as members of one family … in the face of the true Unknowns ….

WHAT IF’S

DP: If NASA came out tomorrow with a press statement saying that they found evidence of artificiality on Mars, how long do you think it would take for a manned mission to commence?

RCH: About thirty minutes. Technically, of course, it would take a bit longer …. Realistically, we could probably do it in half the time as Apollo … about five years … given that a LOT of the technical and engineering requirements of a manned Mars mission (and the answers) are now known -- as opposed to the lunar declaration of Kennedy, 40 years ago. All that really stands in our way is “money.” And Congress would willingly fund whatever it took to go … if NASA truly told us the truth … about what is truly waiting when we get there. Every poll tells us that -- and Congress (and the White House) are nothing, if not driven by the polls ….

DP: If these are indeed artificial structures buried beneath the Cydonian surface, how deep would future xeno-archaeologists have to dig to excavate?

RCH: Initially, based on the MOLA data, we thought they’d be very deep – several thousand feet. Now, we’re reanalyzing that initial impression. We believe, based on some exciting new fractal results we’ve just published (October 5) – from Carlotto, over 12 years ago – that they could in fact be very shallow. Which would make gaining access almost trivial to any manned expedition -- if not to near-term robots!

DP: If the above scenarios played out, in what capacity would you like to be involved?

RCH: Ha! That’s a good one!! Well … given that it would probably take an Act of Congress to get NASA to work with me on this – if it’s our actions and those we are trying to inform who actually make the difference in the current deceptive policies around this data – I’ll just let them sweat a bit on that …. :)

DP: Thank you for your time Richard.

RCH: Thanks for asking. And stay tuned … those “surprises” you know. :)

A big thanks goes out to Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara of the Enterprise Mission. Your dedicated pursuit of the "truth" and a lifetime of commitment to this issue make you true legends of your time. Thankyou for thinking outside the box! We appreciate it more than you know.

Please visit the following websites frequently for updates on this most important story and don’t forget to spread the word:

• www.enterprisemission.com
  
• www.marsnews.com
  
• www.media-underground.com
  
• www.artbell.com
• And last but not least this website DarkPlanet!
  
  

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